Guilty By Association- the response

Carla Rolfe left a well-written explanation as to why she thinks contemplative prayer is unbiblical here. I should add that I appreciate the fact that when she disagreed with me she didn't ramble on with name-calling but just stuck to the issues. I wish more bloggers were like that.

Guilty by association

I remember the first time I saw Steve Camp in concert. It was in 1984, and was actually the first Christian concert I ever went to. This was back in the day when Christian music dared play high school gyms, and was concerned about imparting something in addition to entertaining. But I digress. I have always had a soft spot in my heart for Steve Camp ever since. But I have to admit, he has definitely changed in the past 20 years... along with the rest of the church for that matter. But I digress again. I read this article on his blog, which was actually written by someone else, Carla Rolfe. She was one of the few who saw some good in my post about Hurricane Katrina a few years ago. I won't print the whole article. Here is the link.

CAMPONTHIS: "Contemplate" This:
...the mantra of the new age is now considered Christian?

Read this article. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Through? OK, allow me to quote:

"Contemplative/centering/breath prayers, mantras, labyrinths, mood altering-worship enhancing music or visuals or scents, etc. does not represent biblical Christianity."

Where in this article does she prove that these methods aren't biblical? She tells us how bad they are, she tells us how good Sola Scriptura is, but nowhere does she connect the two and prove from Scripture that contemplative prayer is not Biblical. Just because Thomas Merton studied Buddhism and practiced contemplative prayer doesn't mean that contemplative prayer in and of itself isn't Biblical. I've seen Bibles on sale in a Buddhist bookstore before. That doesn't mean the Bible is guilty by association.

"Question: let's back up the truck there: how can one endorse eastern mystic religious practices and defend Sola Scriptura at the same time?

Answer: YOU CAN'T."

Well, umm, Carla, PROVE IT. You did a great job of standing up for Sola Scriptura. You, or anyone else reading this post, shouldn't have any issues with showing me that contemplative prayer isn't scriptural. But all I read in that post is a lot of bluster and no bite. Which is why most blogs aren't worth crap, by the way, and why most bloggers, although they fancy themselves as the "new generation" of journalists and theologians, are nothing of the kind.

I'm not here to convince people that contemplative prayer is the bee's knees. I personally have no issues with it, but I'm not the one who has the burden of proof here, Carla is. And she hasn't met it. Carla is an intelligent blogger. I've read her stuff before. Don't sell me the sizzle, Carla; serve me the steak.

STOP! MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS!

My personal pet peeve these days is that phrase. Umm, people? If the TV show has aired, spoiler warnings do not apply. If you are that worried about finding out what happens then don't put yourself in a situation where you might find out what happens. The rest of the world can't be beholden to your schedule. Same with books. If you don't want to know what happens, then don't go to the message boards or blogs that may be discussing it.

Movies are a slightly different story. If a movie has just been released there is a certain statute of limitations for discussing the ending. But if you haven't seen the Crying Game or the Sixth Sense yet, I have news for you- the chick is a guy and the kid sees dead people.

Oh, I'm sorry. Did I spoil it for you? Too bad.

Afternoon Lee-ite

(Sorry, sometimes I just can’t resist the puns.)

I haven’t blogged much in the past few months because, quite frankly, I haven’t had much to say. I posted some political stuff but then decided that it wasn’t really where I wanted to go. I don’t care much for the blogs that post every day just for the sake of having something in print every day. So… I just took a break.

I still had people finding the blog, usually through a Google search. Looking for Titus Chu? You were bound to run across The Pardoner’s Tale. David Hyles catch your fancy? Same thing. Plenty of views but no comments. Until this morning, when I got an interesting comment on my post “The Joy Of Sects” by a guy running a blog titled Liite Buddhism. That’s Lee-ite, for those of you who can’t read all of those I’s. He took offense at what I had to say; this is what he posted:

I spent twelve long years in the LSM cult, and I would like to say politely that you shouldn't talk about things you know nothing about.The problem with the Local Church group -- properly called "Liites" (the followers of Chang-Shou Li) -- is not that they have novel doctrines, but far worse. The problem is twofold.

(1) Their central doctrine is a version of the dharma wheel of Buddhism, which they call "mingling." To them, God wants to terminate man's soul and replace it with himself. The believer, thus annihilated of the self, the "I," is then reabsorbed into God, ie. nirvana. None of this is remotely Christian. Indeed, since this involves the destruction of the soul, rather than its salvation in the Christian sense, this is anti-Christian.

(2) So keeping in line with the central anti-soul doctrine, Liite doctrine and ritual center around man being wholly evil. That is, your nature and everything about you is evil and must be suppressed. Your needs and opinions are "fallen" and must be annihilated. As one can imagine, this can produce psychological duress together with the high-stress activity of five long meetings a week and two ten-day training camps a year.

The Local Church is aware of the resultant mental breakdowns; they normally lead to intervention by the victim's family from outside the organization and departure from the group. The Local Church then describes the breakdowns in reverse: as what happens when a member leaves. This is callous to say the least, but the intent seems to be to scare members away from leaving.

I fear that you may have already made up your mind from innocence. But I hate to see someone to take a position on a group that causes people so much mental harm. People DO matter.

You’re right, my friend, people DO matter. You matter, I matter, even the Liites matter (and for the record, please drop the incessant use of Li as Witness Lee’s surname; it is much easier on the eyes). Regardless of how I feel about the current regime in Living Stream Ministry, I feel like they deserved to be treated fairly, which is why I try to be objective even though I am not currently a member.

“I spent twelve long years in the LSM cult, and I would like to say politely that you shouldn't talk about things you know nothing about.” Well my friend, I have spent 22 years in fellowship with brothers from the churches in Elyria, Lorain and Cleveland, so I think I do know something about what I am talking about.

“The problem with the Local Church group -- properly called "Liites" (the followers of Chang-Shou Li) -- is not that they have novel doctrines, but far worse. The problem is twofold.” We will get to the twofold in a minute. Since the founder’s name is Witness Lee, the followers would properly be called “Lee-ites”, if you insisted on referring to them in that way. I prefer the term “brothers” or simply “Christians”. But that’s just me.

(1) Their central doctrine is a version of the dharma wheel of Buddhism, which they call "mingling." To them, God wants to terminate man's soul and replace it with himself. The believer, thus annihilated of the self, the "I," is then reabsorbed into God, ie. nirvana. None of this is remotely Christian. Indeed, since this involves the destruction of the soul, rather than its salvation in the Christian sense, this is anti-Christian.

Brother, you must not have been paying close attention to all of those conferences and trainings you attended, because if you did you would know that “mingling” is not about terminating man’s soul but, umm, mingling man’s soul with the Holy Spirit. Surely you must have heard the term “mingled spirit.” What did you think that it meant?

This is the Triune God dispensing Himself into the tripartite man. Man is of
three parts the human spirit, the human soul, and the human body. As believers
our spirit has been regenerated, and our soul with its leading part, the mind,
is now under renewing which is our transformation. The day will come when our
body will be transfigured, conformed to the body of His glory. This will be the
redemption of our body. Our regeneration has already been accomplished, our
transformation is an ongoing process, and our transfiguration, the redemption of
our body, will be accomplished at Christ’s coming back. This all-inclusive One
as the consummation of the Triune God is working the Triune God into our three
parts into our spirit, into our soul, and into our body. This is the Triune God
working Himself into the tripartite man by His divine dispensing. (Witness Lee,
God’s New Testament Economy, 134-135)

It isn’t about termination, but transformation.

(2) So keeping in line with the central anti-soul doctrine, Liite doctrine and ritual center around man being wholly evil. That is, your nature and everything about you is evil and must be suppressed. Your needs and opinions are "fallen" and must be annihilated. As one can imagine, this can produce psychological duress together with the high-stress activity of five long meetings a week and two ten-day training camps a year.

Seeing as how the central doctrine isn’t anti-soul but renewed, regenerated, transformed soul, there isn’t much more I can do with this sentence. I don’t doubt that some Local Church leaders, perhaps the ones this particular person was in contact with, were harsh towards those who expressed opinions that they felt needed to be annihilated. I would suggest that the problem is not only with the leaders, but with the followers who let that kind of crap continue.

Five long meetings a week and two ten-day training camps a year. Yeah, I will agree that five meetings a week can be a bit much. Some people derive a lot of enjoyment out of meeting that often. More power to them. Others would rather meet less. Let each person be convinced in his own mind.

As far as the trainings go, I used to love the trainings. Then again, I never went to every meeting of the ten days.

The Local Church is aware of the resultant mental breakdowns; they normally lead to intervention by the victim's family from outside the organization and departure from the group. The Local Church then describes the breakdowns in reverse: as what happens when a member leaves. This is callous to say the least, but the intent seems to be to scare members away from leaving.

And there is no way to deal with that sentence either. Is the Local Church aware of breakdowns? There is no way to prove or disprove that claim without someone’s testimony, something you won’t find on the author’s blog. His testimony is there- true. I would be more comfortable dealing with his claims is there was some more meat. And this is why I can’t take his claims of the “Liites” being a dangerous cult seriously. He provides no quotes from Witness Lee materials, or other sources. Just his word. If he says Witness Lee is dangerous, it must be true. He throws around loaded phrases like “dangerous cult” and “Liite Buddhism” without any kind of documentation.

Let’s look at a post of his entitled “History”. He claims that it is proven that Witness Lee was not an associate of Watchman Nee, but he provides no quotes, no documentation of this. Meanwhile, a popular biography of Watchman Nee, Against The Tide, makes the claim:

At the Shantung Resort of Chefoo he met also for the first time Witness Lee. A
native of that city, Lee came of Buddhist parents and had been converted in 1925
at the age of 20. Since 1927 he had received Watchman’s magazine and was himself
developing fast a gift of preaching and Bible exposition. Future circumstances
were to bring the two men very close together at a critical period. (pg 144)

Sure sounds like they knew each other, from a source that isn’t even in cahoots with Living Stream Ministry.

Here is an interesting, and upon first glance, damning statement from the History post:

By 1961, Lee was left with only a single Vineyard Fellowship in Los Angeles, California, who were willing to allow Lee to continue speaking among them. Lee continued to live off the charity of its members. By 1962, Lee attempted a take over of the host Vineyard Fellowship in Los Angeles, just as he had done in Taiwan.

One problem with that, brother. The Vineyard Christian Fellowship didn’t even exist until the early seventies.

A house on several acres on prime urban real estate on Ball Road in Anaheim California was built and donated to Lee, valued at 4 million dollars at the time, where he lived with his fourth wife.
You’re going to have to do better than that. I can only find statements to the effect that he was married twice, and that’s because his first wife had died.

I’m sorry, I can't deal with this blogger anymore. Don’t write me and tell me that I don’t know what I’m talking about when you can’t prove anything you are charging on your own blog.

Visions of Johanna

Ain't it just like the night to play tricks when you're tryin' to be so quiet?
We sit here stranded, though we're all doin' our best to deny it
And Louise holds a handful of rain, temptin' you to defy it
Lights flicker from the opposite loft
In this room the heat pipes just cough
The country music station plays soft
But there's nothing, really nothing to turn off
Just Louise and her lover so entwined
And these visions of Johanna that conquer my mind

In the empty lot where the ladies play blindman's bluff with the key chain
And the all-night girls they whisper of escapades out on the "D" train
We can hear the night watchman click his flashlight
Ask himself if it's him or them that's really insane
Louise, she's all right, she's just near
She's delicate and seems like the mirror
But she just makes it all too concise and too clear
That Johanna's not here
The ghost of 'lectricity howls in the bones of her face
Where these visions of Johanna have now taken my place

Now, little boy lost, he takes himself so seriously
He brags of his misery, he likes to live dangerously
And when bringing her name up
He speaks of a farewell kiss to me
He's sure got a lotta gall to be so useless and all
Muttering small talk at the wall while I'm in the hall
How can I explain?
Oh, it's so hard to get on
And these visions of Johanna, they kept me up past the dawn

Inside the museums, Infinity goes up on trial
Voices echo this is what salvation must be like after a while
But Mona Lisa musta had the highway blues
You can tell by the way she smiles
See the primitive wallflower freeze
When the jelly-faced women all sneeze
Hear the one with the mustache say, "Jeeze
I can't find my knees"
Oh, jewels and binoculars hang from the head of the mule
But these visions of Johanna, they make it all seem so cruel

The peddler now speaks to the countess who's pretending to care for him
Sayin', "Name me someone that's not a parasite and I'll go out and say a prayer for him"
But like Louise always says
"Ya can't look at much, can ya man?"
As she, herself, prepares for him
And Madonna, she still has not showed
We see this empty cage now corrode
Where her cape of the stage once had flowed
The fiddler, he now steps to the road
He writes ev'rything's been returned which was owed
On the back of the fish truck that loads
While my conscience explodes
The harmonicas play the skeleton keys and the rain
And these visions of Johanna are now all that remain

---Bob Dylan, "Visions of Johanna"

Just in a melancholy mood tonight.